Confessions of a Lapsed Atheist, Part II
Sep. 9th, 2004 08:30 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
ciroccojA little while ago I posted some musings on faith and religion, which I ended with, "I was going to wrap this up with my observations re. oppression/silencing of persons of belief v. persons of non-belief, but that grew to be its own monster entry and feh. Later."
Well, here's the 'later.' Because one of the things that got me writing about the whole dreary mess was something I've read and heard a lot from Christians – that they feel marginalized or silenced by widely-accepted ridicule towards belief of any kind, and Christianity in particular.
What follows is absolutely not an attempt to minimize that, because I'm well aware that that ridicule is real. It's just my attempt to show what the world looks like from my side of the issue. If you go behind this cut, please try to remember that I do have a lot of respect for faith and religion, although it may not seem like it from this post. I'd just rather not have to qualify every single statement with a disclaimer, or this will get even longer.
A while ago I heard a childfree person say that any guff that parents of small children receive from society is nothing, compared to the guff that childfree people get. I thought about it a lot, and decided that IMHO neither side is in a position to guess who's more persecuted. I've seen lots of unfair and ridiculous comments and attitudes aimed at childfree folks, sure. But (to me) they pale next to the inconveniences, rolled eyes, insensitive comments, etc, that I've been subjected to as a parent. Places that aren't stroller-accessible, or that you can't take your child into, or that are run by people who yell at you variations on "make sure you keep that kid on a leash." Events that are aimed at people with no small children, classes that are scheduled at night, after-hours meetings that are set up suddenly on the assumption that nobody needs to scramble to get babysitting...
My perception is that I'm far more persecuted than any childfree person is. Now, am I really? Probably not. But I don't perceive the full scope of the anti-childlessness of our society, because most of the comments are not directed at me, and the ones that are said in my presence don't register most of the time. I don't even perceive anti-childlessness in myself, though I'm pretty sure it must be there.
Same with belief/non-belief. I know ridicule of faith is real, and I know I've handed out my fair share. But when I look at the world around me, I see a society that is very much structured to cater to those who believe in something spiritual, and that Christianity has by far the most highly favoured place in the hierarchy of societal catering.
Our entire world becomes devoted towards celebrating the birth of the Christian Messiah for about two months of the year. Then we celebrate his rebirth a few months later. In Quebec they celebrate John the Baptist day with partying you can hear all the way to Manitoba. New Orleans Mardi Gras is huge. There are traditions and displays and cards and songs and feasts and government sanctioned holidays and you know what? There's no equivalent Atheist's day, Agnostic's day, or even non-Christian holiday event that comes close. We may tack on "Happy Hannukah, or good uh, happy, whatever, you know, Kwanzaa-thing" after saying Merry Christmas, but it's doubtful any of us have much of an idea of what Hannukah or Kwanzaa involve. Other than the fact that menorahs figure in there somewhere and that Kwanzaa... that's a black thing, right?
And it doesn't stop there. People take oaths involving the Bible or at least God, to become citizens, gain public office, testify in court, etc etc. Prayer is standard at almost every single solemn public occasion. Money says "In God We Trust." The United States is "One Nation, Under God." The Canadian national anthem says, "God keep our land/Glorious and free" in the English version, and "Car ton bras sait porter l'épée/ Il sait porter la croix" (As in thy arm ready to wield the sword/ So also is it ready to carry the cross) and "Et ta valeur, de foi trempée," (Thy valour steeped in faith) in the French version.
It's hard to see this as marginalization.
The flip side of this coin? Here's a link:
A heartening response from atheists
Here's a snippet from the article:
In writing of my objection to the open ridicule and discrimination faced by atheists, I had anticipated letters maligning me and warning of the eternal damnation to come. And yes, there were a handful of those. But they were countered by more than 350 positive responses. My e-mail account overflowed with people expressing their amazement that someone, somewhere was finally saying what they held to be true - views that were almost completely absent in the mainstream media.
And here's my favourite quote:
I'm often reminded of a comment made by Bush Sr. during his run for the presidency when a reporter from the American Atheist news journal asked him if he recognized the equal citizenship and patriotism of Americans who are atheists. Bush responded, "No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.'
So... atheists can't even be citizens?
It doesn't surprise me that a politician could say that and still be elected to the highest office in the land. I'm sure a lot of people totally agreed with him. After all, atheist boys have been told they can't be Boy Scouts in the US. And although Scouts Canada has more open attitudes towards the "3 G's" (girls, gays, and the Godless) mostly it's mere tolerance. Not genuine respect.
I actually didn't agree with some of what the article said, by the way. I don't perceive the kind of "oppression" described in the article. Maybe I'm not qualified to comment on it, though, because I'm not actually a full-time atheist so it's possible that I just don't notice the outright hatred and discrimination out there.
I was an atheist, as a child. I remember being somewhat incensed that I was supposed to say the Lord's Prayer in elementary school every morning, but I simply stood silently and never suffered any negative consequences. However, I have had several times in my life where my non-belief has been mocked or has led to at least raised eyebrows. I've also been told that as a person without a solid belief in God, there's no way I could truly (a) appreciate the world, (b) survive a loved one's death (before and after my mother died), (c) find meaning to my life (d) do anything truly good (e) be trusted to keep from doing wrong...
I mean, I was once told that I would burn in Hell for all eternity by a lifer at Kingston Penitentiary, while he would be in Heaven, because he had accepted Christ as his saviour and I had not. Hm. It made me think If that's the kind of God you believe in... well, no wonder you're in here, buddy. You believe in a God who can look past any depravity and any harm to fellow humans, as long as you dig him personally, but who will condemn you to eternal damnation no matter how nice you are because you used the brain he gave you to make up your own mind about his existence or lack thereof, and came up with the wrong answer.
It's like having a teacher who gives A's to ignorant bullies as long as they bring her an apple every day, but fails good students who don't suck up to her.
By the way, I may doubt the existence of a god, but I have no doubt that if there is one, he/she/it is either indifferent to human affairs or is a god of love and compassion and forgiveness. My take on hell is summed up in an exchange from an old British sitcom, Bless Me Father:
Young Priest: Do ye not believe in Hell, then, Father?
Old Priest: Of course I believe in it! I'm a good Catholic, aren't I? Of course there's a hell. (pause) But ye'd have to be a raving lunatic to think God would send anybody into it.
***
As you can probably tell by now, I've thought about this subject a lot. Read about it a lot. In fact, many of my favourite books deal with faith, or lack thereof. I read mostly sci-fi, and although most sci-fi books don't deal with religion much, I've always been intrigued by the very very few that deal with it from an atheist point of view. Robert J. Sawyer's Neanderthal Parallax trilogy, for example. I find his approach ultimately a little too simplistic and heavy-handed (not to mention disrespectful of faith – the books basically attribute faith among homo sapiens as the product of a wonky delusion-gene) but I find it refreshing that he invents an entire civilisation founded on absolute atheism. And the people in that civilisation are not immoral, or degenerates, or bad. They're people who love their spouses, children, parents, environment, life, etc... but have absolutely no doubt that nobody is looking over them, and that after death, there is nothing.
Cirocco Jones, my e-name for about 15 years, is the name of the heroine of John Varley's Titan-Wizard-Demon trilogy. It's not my favourite set of books evah – it's just the books I'd just finished reading when I first needed an internet name – but they also star an entire race of moral, gentle, intelligent, wise, kind, peaceful people who don't believe in God or an afterlife. And yet they love life and each other, feel their lives have meaning, and feel all sorts of things that we usually think are reserved only for those who have the grace of God (Allah, Spirit of the Cave Bear, etc). It's intriguing. I don't get that from the world around me. I wish I did.
Perhaps I'm being thin-skinned. Perhaps, as![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
jenniferjames said, I need to grow stronger in what I believe so that I don't take certain comments or attitudes as a personal attack.
In my case, I don't think I necessarily need to grow stronger in my atheism/agnosticism, but perhaps I need to not get irate at other people's attitudes towards them. I don't want to crusade for atheism or agnosticism – I see no need to convert anybody to non-belief. But I'd like to see what it would be like if lack of religious faith were not seen as a character flaw.
The point to this post? None. Just sharing a point of view.
Well, here's the 'later.' Because one of the things that got me writing about the whole dreary mess was something I've read and heard a lot from Christians – that they feel marginalized or silenced by widely-accepted ridicule towards belief of any kind, and Christianity in particular.
What follows is absolutely not an attempt to minimize that, because I'm well aware that that ridicule is real. It's just my attempt to show what the world looks like from my side of the issue. If you go behind this cut, please try to remember that I do have a lot of respect for faith and religion, although it may not seem like it from this post. I'd just rather not have to qualify every single statement with a disclaimer, or this will get even longer.
A while ago I heard a childfree person say that any guff that parents of small children receive from society is nothing, compared to the guff that childfree people get. I thought about it a lot, and decided that IMHO neither side is in a position to guess who's more persecuted. I've seen lots of unfair and ridiculous comments and attitudes aimed at childfree folks, sure. But (to me) they pale next to the inconveniences, rolled eyes, insensitive comments, etc, that I've been subjected to as a parent. Places that aren't stroller-accessible, or that you can't take your child into, or that are run by people who yell at you variations on "make sure you keep that kid on a leash." Events that are aimed at people with no small children, classes that are scheduled at night, after-hours meetings that are set up suddenly on the assumption that nobody needs to scramble to get babysitting...
My perception is that I'm far more persecuted than any childfree person is. Now, am I really? Probably not. But I don't perceive the full scope of the anti-childlessness of our society, because most of the comments are not directed at me, and the ones that are said in my presence don't register most of the time. I don't even perceive anti-childlessness in myself, though I'm pretty sure it must be there.
Same with belief/non-belief. I know ridicule of faith is real, and I know I've handed out my fair share. But when I look at the world around me, I see a society that is very much structured to cater to those who believe in something spiritual, and that Christianity has by far the most highly favoured place in the hierarchy of societal catering.
Our entire world becomes devoted towards celebrating the birth of the Christian Messiah for about two months of the year. Then we celebrate his rebirth a few months later. In Quebec they celebrate John the Baptist day with partying you can hear all the way to Manitoba. New Orleans Mardi Gras is huge. There are traditions and displays and cards and songs and feasts and government sanctioned holidays and you know what? There's no equivalent Atheist's day, Agnostic's day, or even non-Christian holiday event that comes close. We may tack on "Happy Hannukah, or good uh, happy, whatever, you know, Kwanzaa-thing" after saying Merry Christmas, but it's doubtful any of us have much of an idea of what Hannukah or Kwanzaa involve. Other than the fact that menorahs figure in there somewhere and that Kwanzaa... that's a black thing, right?
And it doesn't stop there. People take oaths involving the Bible or at least God, to become citizens, gain public office, testify in court, etc etc. Prayer is standard at almost every single solemn public occasion. Money says "In God We Trust." The United States is "One Nation, Under God." The Canadian national anthem says, "God keep our land/Glorious and free" in the English version, and "Car ton bras sait porter l'épée/ Il sait porter la croix" (As in thy arm ready to wield the sword/ So also is it ready to carry the cross) and "Et ta valeur, de foi trempée," (Thy valour steeped in faith) in the French version.
It's hard to see this as marginalization.
The flip side of this coin? Here's a link:
A heartening response from atheists
Here's a snippet from the article:
In writing of my objection to the open ridicule and discrimination faced by atheists, I had anticipated letters maligning me and warning of the eternal damnation to come. And yes, there were a handful of those. But they were countered by more than 350 positive responses. My e-mail account overflowed with people expressing their amazement that someone, somewhere was finally saying what they held to be true - views that were almost completely absent in the mainstream media.
And here's my favourite quote:
I'm often reminded of a comment made by Bush Sr. during his run for the presidency when a reporter from the American Atheist news journal asked him if he recognized the equal citizenship and patriotism of Americans who are atheists. Bush responded, "No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.'
So... atheists can't even be citizens?
It doesn't surprise me that a politician could say that and still be elected to the highest office in the land. I'm sure a lot of people totally agreed with him. After all, atheist boys have been told they can't be Boy Scouts in the US. And although Scouts Canada has more open attitudes towards the "3 G's" (girls, gays, and the Godless) mostly it's mere tolerance. Not genuine respect.
I actually didn't agree with some of what the article said, by the way. I don't perceive the kind of "oppression" described in the article. Maybe I'm not qualified to comment on it, though, because I'm not actually a full-time atheist so it's possible that I just don't notice the outright hatred and discrimination out there.
I was an atheist, as a child. I remember being somewhat incensed that I was supposed to say the Lord's Prayer in elementary school every morning, but I simply stood silently and never suffered any negative consequences. However, I have had several times in my life where my non-belief has been mocked or has led to at least raised eyebrows. I've also been told that as a person without a solid belief in God, there's no way I could truly (a) appreciate the world, (b) survive a loved one's death (before and after my mother died), (c) find meaning to my life (d) do anything truly good (e) be trusted to keep from doing wrong...
I mean, I was once told that I would burn in Hell for all eternity by a lifer at Kingston Penitentiary, while he would be in Heaven, because he had accepted Christ as his saviour and I had not. Hm. It made me think If that's the kind of God you believe in... well, no wonder you're in here, buddy. You believe in a God who can look past any depravity and any harm to fellow humans, as long as you dig him personally, but who will condemn you to eternal damnation no matter how nice you are because you used the brain he gave you to make up your own mind about his existence or lack thereof, and came up with the wrong answer.
It's like having a teacher who gives A's to ignorant bullies as long as they bring her an apple every day, but fails good students who don't suck up to her.
By the way, I may doubt the existence of a god, but I have no doubt that if there is one, he/she/it is either indifferent to human affairs or is a god of love and compassion and forgiveness. My take on hell is summed up in an exchange from an old British sitcom, Bless Me Father:
Young Priest: Do ye not believe in Hell, then, Father?
Old Priest: Of course I believe in it! I'm a good Catholic, aren't I? Of course there's a hell. (pause) But ye'd have to be a raving lunatic to think God would send anybody into it.
***
As you can probably tell by now, I've thought about this subject a lot. Read about it a lot. In fact, many of my favourite books deal with faith, or lack thereof. I read mostly sci-fi, and although most sci-fi books don't deal with religion much, I've always been intrigued by the very very few that deal with it from an atheist point of view. Robert J. Sawyer's Neanderthal Parallax trilogy, for example. I find his approach ultimately a little too simplistic and heavy-handed (not to mention disrespectful of faith – the books basically attribute faith among homo sapiens as the product of a wonky delusion-gene) but I find it refreshing that he invents an entire civilisation founded on absolute atheism. And the people in that civilisation are not immoral, or degenerates, or bad. They're people who love their spouses, children, parents, environment, life, etc... but have absolutely no doubt that nobody is looking over them, and that after death, there is nothing.
Cirocco Jones, my e-name for about 15 years, is the name of the heroine of John Varley's Titan-Wizard-Demon trilogy. It's not my favourite set of books evah – it's just the books I'd just finished reading when I first needed an internet name – but they also star an entire race of moral, gentle, intelligent, wise, kind, peaceful people who don't believe in God or an afterlife. And yet they love life and each other, feel their lives have meaning, and feel all sorts of things that we usually think are reserved only for those who have the grace of God (Allah, Spirit of the Cave Bear, etc). It's intriguing. I don't get that from the world around me. I wish I did.
Perhaps I'm being thin-skinned. Perhaps, as
jenniferjames said, I need to grow stronger in what I believe so that I don't take certain comments or attitudes as a personal attack.In my case, I don't think I necessarily need to grow stronger in my atheism/agnosticism, but perhaps I need to not get irate at other people's attitudes towards them. I don't want to crusade for atheism or agnosticism – I see no need to convert anybody to non-belief. But I'd like to see what it would be like if lack of religious faith were not seen as a character flaw.
The point to this post? None. Just sharing a point of view.
