Confessions of a Lapsed Atheist, Part II
Sep. 9th, 2004 08:30 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
ciroccojA little while ago I posted some musings on faith and religion, which I ended with, "I was going to wrap this up with my observations re. oppression/silencing of persons of belief v. persons of non-belief, but that grew to be its own monster entry and feh. Later."
Well, here's the 'later.' Because one of the things that got me writing about the whole dreary mess was something I've read and heard a lot from Christians – that they feel marginalized or silenced by widely-accepted ridicule towards belief of any kind, and Christianity in particular.
What follows is absolutely not an attempt to minimize that, because I'm well aware that that ridicule is real. It's just my attempt to show what the world looks like from my side of the issue. If you go behind this cut, please try to remember that I do have a lot of respect for faith and religion, although it may not seem like it from this post. I'd just rather not have to qualify every single statement with a disclaimer, or this will get even longer.
A while ago I heard a childfree person say that any guff that parents of small children receive from society is nothing, compared to the guff that childfree people get. I thought about it a lot, and decided that IMHO neither side is in a position to guess who's more persecuted. I've seen lots of unfair and ridiculous comments and attitudes aimed at childfree folks, sure. But (to me) they pale next to the inconveniences, rolled eyes, insensitive comments, etc, that I've been subjected to as a parent. Places that aren't stroller-accessible, or that you can't take your child into, or that are run by people who yell at you variations on "make sure you keep that kid on a leash." Events that are aimed at people with no small children, classes that are scheduled at night, after-hours meetings that are set up suddenly on the assumption that nobody needs to scramble to get babysitting...
My perception is that I'm far more persecuted than any childfree person is. Now, am I really? Probably not. But I don't perceive the full scope of the anti-childlessness of our society, because most of the comments are not directed at me, and the ones that are said in my presence don't register most of the time. I don't even perceive anti-childlessness in myself, though I'm pretty sure it must be there.
Same with belief/non-belief. I know ridicule of faith is real, and I know I've handed out my fair share. But when I look at the world around me, I see a society that is very much structured to cater to those who believe in something spiritual, and that Christianity has by far the most highly favoured place in the hierarchy of societal catering.
Our entire world becomes devoted towards celebrating the birth of the Christian Messiah for about two months of the year. Then we celebrate his rebirth a few months later. In Quebec they celebrate John the Baptist day with partying you can hear all the way to Manitoba. New Orleans Mardi Gras is huge. There are traditions and displays and cards and songs and feasts and government sanctioned holidays and you know what? There's no equivalent Atheist's day, Agnostic's day, or even non-Christian holiday event that comes close. We may tack on "Happy Hannukah, or good uh, happy, whatever, you know, Kwanzaa-thing" after saying Merry Christmas, but it's doubtful any of us have much of an idea of what Hannukah or Kwanzaa involve. Other than the fact that menorahs figure in there somewhere and that Kwanzaa... that's a black thing, right?
And it doesn't stop there. People take oaths involving the Bible or at least God, to become citizens, gain public office, testify in court, etc etc. Prayer is standard at almost every single solemn public occasion. Money says "In God We Trust." The United States is "One Nation, Under God." The Canadian national anthem says, "God keep our land/Glorious and free" in the English version, and "Car ton bras sait porter l'épée/ Il sait porter la croix" (As in thy arm ready to wield the sword/ So also is it ready to carry the cross) and "Et ta valeur, de foi trempée," (Thy valour steeped in faith) in the French version.
It's hard to see this as marginalization.
The flip side of this coin? Here's a link:
A heartening response from atheists
Here's a snippet from the article:
In writing of my objection to the open ridicule and discrimination faced by atheists, I had anticipated letters maligning me and warning of the eternal damnation to come. And yes, there were a handful of those. But they were countered by more than 350 positive responses. My e-mail account overflowed with people expressing their amazement that someone, somewhere was finally saying what they held to be true - views that were almost completely absent in the mainstream media.
And here's my favourite quote:
I'm often reminded of a comment made by Bush Sr. during his run for the presidency when a reporter from the American Atheist news journal asked him if he recognized the equal citizenship and patriotism of Americans who are atheists. Bush responded, "No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.'
So... atheists can't even be citizens?
It doesn't surprise me that a politician could say that and still be elected to the highest office in the land. I'm sure a lot of people totally agreed with him. After all, atheist boys have been told they can't be Boy Scouts in the US. And although Scouts Canada has more open attitudes towards the "3 G's" (girls, gays, and the Godless) mostly it's mere tolerance. Not genuine respect.
I actually didn't agree with some of what the article said, by the way. I don't perceive the kind of "oppression" described in the article. Maybe I'm not qualified to comment on it, though, because I'm not actually a full-time atheist so it's possible that I just don't notice the outright hatred and discrimination out there.
I was an atheist, as a child. I remember being somewhat incensed that I was supposed to say the Lord's Prayer in elementary school every morning, but I simply stood silently and never suffered any negative consequences. However, I have had several times in my life where my non-belief has been mocked or has led to at least raised eyebrows. I've also been told that as a person without a solid belief in God, there's no way I could truly (a) appreciate the world, (b) survive a loved one's death (before and after my mother died), (c) find meaning to my life (d) do anything truly good (e) be trusted to keep from doing wrong...
I mean, I was once told that I would burn in Hell for all eternity by a lifer at Kingston Penitentiary, while he would be in Heaven, because he had accepted Christ as his saviour and I had not. Hm. It made me think If that's the kind of God you believe in... well, no wonder you're in here, buddy. You believe in a God who can look past any depravity and any harm to fellow humans, as long as you dig him personally, but who will condemn you to eternal damnation no matter how nice you are because you used the brain he gave you to make up your own mind about his existence or lack thereof, and came up with the wrong answer.
It's like having a teacher who gives A's to ignorant bullies as long as they bring her an apple every day, but fails good students who don't suck up to her.
By the way, I may doubt the existence of a god, but I have no doubt that if there is one, he/she/it is either indifferent to human affairs or is a god of love and compassion and forgiveness. My take on hell is summed up in an exchange from an old British sitcom, Bless Me Father:
Young Priest: Do ye not believe in Hell, then, Father?
Old Priest: Of course I believe in it! I'm a good Catholic, aren't I? Of course there's a hell. (pause) But ye'd have to be a raving lunatic to think God would send anybody into it.
***
As you can probably tell by now, I've thought about this subject a lot. Read about it a lot. In fact, many of my favourite books deal with faith, or lack thereof. I read mostly sci-fi, and although most sci-fi books don't deal with religion much, I've always been intrigued by the very very few that deal with it from an atheist point of view. Robert J. Sawyer's Neanderthal Parallax trilogy, for example. I find his approach ultimately a little too simplistic and heavy-handed (not to mention disrespectful of faith – the books basically attribute faith among homo sapiens as the product of a wonky delusion-gene) but I find it refreshing that he invents an entire civilisation founded on absolute atheism. And the people in that civilisation are not immoral, or degenerates, or bad. They're people who love their spouses, children, parents, environment, life, etc... but have absolutely no doubt that nobody is looking over them, and that after death, there is nothing.
Cirocco Jones, my e-name for about 15 years, is the name of the heroine of John Varley's Titan-Wizard-Demon trilogy. It's not my favourite set of books evah – it's just the books I'd just finished reading when I first needed an internet name – but they also star an entire race of moral, gentle, intelligent, wise, kind, peaceful people who don't believe in God or an afterlife. And yet they love life and each other, feel their lives have meaning, and feel all sorts of things that we usually think are reserved only for those who have the grace of God (Allah, Spirit of the Cave Bear, etc). It's intriguing. I don't get that from the world around me. I wish I did.
Perhaps I'm being thin-skinned. Perhaps, as![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
jenniferjames said, I need to grow stronger in what I believe so that I don't take certain comments or attitudes as a personal attack.
In my case, I don't think I necessarily need to grow stronger in my atheism/agnosticism, but perhaps I need to not get irate at other people's attitudes towards them. I don't want to crusade for atheism or agnosticism – I see no need to convert anybody to non-belief. But I'd like to see what it would be like if lack of religious faith were not seen as a character flaw.
The point to this post? None. Just sharing a point of view.
Well, here's the 'later.' Because one of the things that got me writing about the whole dreary mess was something I've read and heard a lot from Christians – that they feel marginalized or silenced by widely-accepted ridicule towards belief of any kind, and Christianity in particular.
What follows is absolutely not an attempt to minimize that, because I'm well aware that that ridicule is real. It's just my attempt to show what the world looks like from my side of the issue. If you go behind this cut, please try to remember that I do have a lot of respect for faith and religion, although it may not seem like it from this post. I'd just rather not have to qualify every single statement with a disclaimer, or this will get even longer.
A while ago I heard a childfree person say that any guff that parents of small children receive from society is nothing, compared to the guff that childfree people get. I thought about it a lot, and decided that IMHO neither side is in a position to guess who's more persecuted. I've seen lots of unfair and ridiculous comments and attitudes aimed at childfree folks, sure. But (to me) they pale next to the inconveniences, rolled eyes, insensitive comments, etc, that I've been subjected to as a parent. Places that aren't stroller-accessible, or that you can't take your child into, or that are run by people who yell at you variations on "make sure you keep that kid on a leash." Events that are aimed at people with no small children, classes that are scheduled at night, after-hours meetings that are set up suddenly on the assumption that nobody needs to scramble to get babysitting...
My perception is that I'm far more persecuted than any childfree person is. Now, am I really? Probably not. But I don't perceive the full scope of the anti-childlessness of our society, because most of the comments are not directed at me, and the ones that are said in my presence don't register most of the time. I don't even perceive anti-childlessness in myself, though I'm pretty sure it must be there.
Same with belief/non-belief. I know ridicule of faith is real, and I know I've handed out my fair share. But when I look at the world around me, I see a society that is very much structured to cater to those who believe in something spiritual, and that Christianity has by far the most highly favoured place in the hierarchy of societal catering.
Our entire world becomes devoted towards celebrating the birth of the Christian Messiah for about two months of the year. Then we celebrate his rebirth a few months later. In Quebec they celebrate John the Baptist day with partying you can hear all the way to Manitoba. New Orleans Mardi Gras is huge. There are traditions and displays and cards and songs and feasts and government sanctioned holidays and you know what? There's no equivalent Atheist's day, Agnostic's day, or even non-Christian holiday event that comes close. We may tack on "Happy Hannukah, or good uh, happy, whatever, you know, Kwanzaa-thing" after saying Merry Christmas, but it's doubtful any of us have much of an idea of what Hannukah or Kwanzaa involve. Other than the fact that menorahs figure in there somewhere and that Kwanzaa... that's a black thing, right?
And it doesn't stop there. People take oaths involving the Bible or at least God, to become citizens, gain public office, testify in court, etc etc. Prayer is standard at almost every single solemn public occasion. Money says "In God We Trust." The United States is "One Nation, Under God." The Canadian national anthem says, "God keep our land/Glorious and free" in the English version, and "Car ton bras sait porter l'épée/ Il sait porter la croix" (As in thy arm ready to wield the sword/ So also is it ready to carry the cross) and "Et ta valeur, de foi trempée," (Thy valour steeped in faith) in the French version.
It's hard to see this as marginalization.
The flip side of this coin? Here's a link:
A heartening response from atheists
Here's a snippet from the article:
In writing of my objection to the open ridicule and discrimination faced by atheists, I had anticipated letters maligning me and warning of the eternal damnation to come. And yes, there were a handful of those. But they were countered by more than 350 positive responses. My e-mail account overflowed with people expressing their amazement that someone, somewhere was finally saying what they held to be true - views that were almost completely absent in the mainstream media.
And here's my favourite quote:
I'm often reminded of a comment made by Bush Sr. during his run for the presidency when a reporter from the American Atheist news journal asked him if he recognized the equal citizenship and patriotism of Americans who are atheists. Bush responded, "No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.'
So... atheists can't even be citizens?
It doesn't surprise me that a politician could say that and still be elected to the highest office in the land. I'm sure a lot of people totally agreed with him. After all, atheist boys have been told they can't be Boy Scouts in the US. And although Scouts Canada has more open attitudes towards the "3 G's" (girls, gays, and the Godless) mostly it's mere tolerance. Not genuine respect.
I actually didn't agree with some of what the article said, by the way. I don't perceive the kind of "oppression" described in the article. Maybe I'm not qualified to comment on it, though, because I'm not actually a full-time atheist so it's possible that I just don't notice the outright hatred and discrimination out there.
I was an atheist, as a child. I remember being somewhat incensed that I was supposed to say the Lord's Prayer in elementary school every morning, but I simply stood silently and never suffered any negative consequences. However, I have had several times in my life where my non-belief has been mocked or has led to at least raised eyebrows. I've also been told that as a person without a solid belief in God, there's no way I could truly (a) appreciate the world, (b) survive a loved one's death (before and after my mother died), (c) find meaning to my life (d) do anything truly good (e) be trusted to keep from doing wrong...
I mean, I was once told that I would burn in Hell for all eternity by a lifer at Kingston Penitentiary, while he would be in Heaven, because he had accepted Christ as his saviour and I had not. Hm. It made me think If that's the kind of God you believe in... well, no wonder you're in here, buddy. You believe in a God who can look past any depravity and any harm to fellow humans, as long as you dig him personally, but who will condemn you to eternal damnation no matter how nice you are because you used the brain he gave you to make up your own mind about his existence or lack thereof, and came up with the wrong answer.
It's like having a teacher who gives A's to ignorant bullies as long as they bring her an apple every day, but fails good students who don't suck up to her.
By the way, I may doubt the existence of a god, but I have no doubt that if there is one, he/she/it is either indifferent to human affairs or is a god of love and compassion and forgiveness. My take on hell is summed up in an exchange from an old British sitcom, Bless Me Father:
Young Priest: Do ye not believe in Hell, then, Father?
Old Priest: Of course I believe in it! I'm a good Catholic, aren't I? Of course there's a hell. (pause) But ye'd have to be a raving lunatic to think God would send anybody into it.
***
As you can probably tell by now, I've thought about this subject a lot. Read about it a lot. In fact, many of my favourite books deal with faith, or lack thereof. I read mostly sci-fi, and although most sci-fi books don't deal with religion much, I've always been intrigued by the very very few that deal with it from an atheist point of view. Robert J. Sawyer's Neanderthal Parallax trilogy, for example. I find his approach ultimately a little too simplistic and heavy-handed (not to mention disrespectful of faith – the books basically attribute faith among homo sapiens as the product of a wonky delusion-gene) but I find it refreshing that he invents an entire civilisation founded on absolute atheism. And the people in that civilisation are not immoral, or degenerates, or bad. They're people who love their spouses, children, parents, environment, life, etc... but have absolutely no doubt that nobody is looking over them, and that after death, there is nothing.
Cirocco Jones, my e-name for about 15 years, is the name of the heroine of John Varley's Titan-Wizard-Demon trilogy. It's not my favourite set of books evah – it's just the books I'd just finished reading when I first needed an internet name – but they also star an entire race of moral, gentle, intelligent, wise, kind, peaceful people who don't believe in God or an afterlife. And yet they love life and each other, feel their lives have meaning, and feel all sorts of things that we usually think are reserved only for those who have the grace of God (Allah, Spirit of the Cave Bear, etc). It's intriguing. I don't get that from the world around me. I wish I did.
Perhaps I'm being thin-skinned. Perhaps, as
jenniferjames said, I need to grow stronger in what I believe so that I don't take certain comments or attitudes as a personal attack.In my case, I don't think I necessarily need to grow stronger in my atheism/agnosticism, but perhaps I need to not get irate at other people's attitudes towards them. I don't want to crusade for atheism or agnosticism – I see no need to convert anybody to non-belief. But I'd like to see what it would be like if lack of religious faith were not seen as a character flaw.
The point to this post? None. Just sharing a point of view.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2004-09-09 06:36 pm (UTC)To me, it's more like the teacher gives you a C because you didn't come up with the "correct" answer. This actually happened to my sister when she turned in her analysis of a poem for her English class, and she was much incensed.
I agree that the US caters to Christians. We get holidays off for Christmas, Easter, and a few other holidays I can't think of. Halloween, which started as a pagan holiday, is still a school day and a work day, and Yom Kippur, Roshashana (bad spelling!), and Hanukkah barely get a nod. I know the story of Hanukkah, but that's because my dad's second wife is Jewish. Atheists are those weird people that never say anything, and the Jehovah's Witnesses never *celebrate* anything -- I found out in first grade that someone I knew was a JW, and I couldn't believe they didn't even get to have a birthday party.
Anyways, you're not attacking anything in this post -- you're pointing out a lot of things that tend to get overlooked by the Everyman. You don't need to believe in some supreme being in order to live a full life. I mean, seriously.
Most of the guys who came up with the Declaration of Independence, and the Constitution? DEISTS. Yep, TJ was a Deist, and while it does include a belief in a supreme being, it's more like God's an absent-minded clock-maker that wandered away a while back, so it's kinda like Deists are saying, "God went to the potty. He'll be back in five. Okay, we don't know if it's five minutes, or five ice ages, but still."
The one thing I really noticed about the South when I moved to GA from MD was the fact that religion was an equal portion of a person's life as their work, or their school, or their free time. I have things I do, and people around here tend to say, "Hey, I gotta head for church. We've got a sermon." or something like that. And even after living here for eight years, I *still* don't get it. My religion is more of a personal nature, so that might have some bearing on why I'm confused.
Urk! Gotta run! Sorry to leave it incomplete like this... Eek! I agree with you, Cirocco!
no subject
Date: 2004-09-10 03:53 am (UTC)Yeah, I know the Hannukah story because in grade 6 our teacher had kids from different backgrounds in our class tell us something about their faiths. And I've read books about Hannukah, Kwanzaa, etc. But it's something that, if you don't go look it up yourself, you'll probably never learn it, because it's not 'out there' the way Christianity is.
so it's kinda like Deists are saying, "God went to the potty. He'll be back in five. Okay, we don't know if it's five minutes, or five ice ages, but still."
LOL!! I've never seen Deism described in quite those terms before. Hee...
The one thing I really noticed about the South when I moved to GA from MD was the fact that religion was an equal portion of a person's life as their work, or their school, or their free time.
Hm. Interesting. I've also read that there's a huge difference in church-going between Canada and the US. I think the figure was 1/3 attend in Canada, 2/3 in the US.
no subject
Date: 2004-09-10 08:23 am (UTC)What's sad is that I don't even know that much about Islam, and that's really kinda sad, what with the intense scrutiny on Muslims post-9/11.
Anyways, the bit about Deism was me trying to get chuckles. I'm glad to know it worked. Still, God probably doesn't have to potty, but maybe he left the front desk for a minute or so...
The attempt at a joke kinda reminds me of this one Dana Carvey comedy routine where he was talking about his family, and how his children use cuteness as a weapon, or something like that.
"Dexter, my son, looks up at me with these big eyes and asks, 'Does God have feet?' Oh. God. Cuteness. Sapping. Energy! Aww, he'ssocute! 'Yes, son, God has feet.'"
Hee. ^_^
But yeah, those church-going figures sound about right, though I've never been to Canada. Maybe everybody in America is worried about losing their soul to capitalism or something, and feeling guilty that they have all this wealth, and kids in third-world countries don't have stuff like shoes.
Then again, it's just me pondering. ^_^
no subject
Date: 2004-09-10 11:47 am (UTC)Aww...
My kids have a whole bunch of Veggietales children's videos. They're basically Bible stories for kids, told by a bunch of cartoon vegetables. While we're not Christian, we really like the message of most of the videos (except the one about obeying the Bible even when it makes no sense - that one I could do without) and we love their sense of humour. One of them has one of the characters telling a child that "God is bigger than the Boogey Man, and bigger than the monsters on TV."
"Is he bigger than the Slime Monster? Because the Slime Monster is HUGE!!"
"Yes, he's bigger than the Slime Monster."
"And the Slime Monster can shoot SLIME out of his EARS!" ::pause:: ::eyes widen:: "Can GOD shoot SLIME out of his EARS?!!"
"Uh... why don't we talk about how to not be so scared at night, OK?"
Somebody on the Veggietales staff has kids ;)
Dude! VeggieTales!
Date: 2004-09-10 11:55 am (UTC)One time when I was 18 or so, I was going to a Tae Kwon Do tournament in Dalton, GA, but seeing as how I have no car, I got a lift from the mother of another TKD person (14yo Christa) to and from the event. Since Christa had a one-year-old sister at the time, we got to watch VeggieTales because of the set-up that Mrs. Brady had in the van.
The vegetables are rather cute, and I got to see Dave and the Giant Pickle, and a few others that I can't remember right now. So, of course, when I have to shelve the juvenile videos, I always snerk when I find a VeggieTales tape on my cart.
What's scary is that I can sing the theme song now, and it's been around three years since I last heard it...
::snerk::
If God could shoot slime out of his ears, I'd be a bit worried.
::wanders off, chuckling to herself as she tries to imagine Junior Asparagus asking if God can shoot slime out of his ears::
no subject
Date: 2004-09-10 04:56 am (UTC)Interesting to note is that when Christianity was just a new faith, they borrowed the Pagan calendar and set all the Christian holidays/faith days before or after the Pagan ones to help convert Pagans to Christianity.
no subject
Date: 2004-09-10 08:26 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-09-09 07:54 pm (UTC)Seriously?
That's so fucked up.
And I can't even comment on what good ol' Bush said...for fear I'll puke on my keyboard. What a punk.
I think, by and large, you're right--this is not a world designed to cope with atheism. Even ignoring, for a moment, the Judeo-Christian bent to Western social and governmental systems, you still have a world that is determined to believe in *something*, and is either terrified of or utterly unwilling to reconcile themselves with people who cannot or choose not to believe in...whatever.
I'm not qualified to comment, really, b/c I'm on the other side of the divide. I do believe in something...but, as with the Mellifluous One up there, it's very, very personal for me...and one of the reasons I choose not to talk about it is that I don't want anyone to think that b/c I believe in X, I must automatically hate/mock/attempt to evangelize those who believe in W, Y, Z, or the empty set. ;) (On the other side of things, I'm not a "good" Christian by many definitions, b/c I'm not a literalist. At all.) So, the point of that whole digression was to say that I have no idea what I'm talking about.
Although...I wonder if it depends not only on your stance, but on your milieu. For example, to be an atheist at a youth group (aka to be a good friend of mine in high school who went to my youth group) is to feel persecuted or at least marginalized. By the same token, to be a person of faith at a meeting of college atheists is to be marginalized. And, while those are extreme examples, I think maybe there's some merit to them, especially in certain kinds of environments--like online fandom. The majority of the fen, at least in fic-dom, are women. I do not feel qualified to comment on faith issues, but I see many people who are lapsed this-or-that, or are atheists by choice or by upbringing...then again, there are persons of faith running around out here, too...
I think I'm just thinking aloud in your journal now. :)
Thanks, though, for a thought-provoking (as usual) analysis.
no subject
Date: 2004-09-09 09:27 pm (UTC)I'd add a third to this, because I don't see myself in either of those two categories. There are those of us who simply find it impossible to comprehend how people can be without faith in something. I've tried to get my head around it, but I can't. (And I've shared a house for five years with someone who considers themself somewhere between agnostic and atheistic, who has tried to explain it to me on occassions.) It's not that I'm not willing to understand, it's that I simply am unable to do so.
I wonder if it depends not only on your stance, but on your milieu
My response to this - very definitely. I think it's an entirely different proposition between, for example, the USA and Australia. It's far more socially acceptable in the US to be a regular churchgoer (in Minnesota, at least - or perhaps only smalltown MN). In Australia it makes you a "wowser". And yes, I am aware that Cirocco is in Canada, but I don't know enough to comment in generalised terms about Canada.
And I should really get back to doing work, now... *g*
no subject
Date: 2004-09-10 11:55 am (UTC)At least you've tried. That's all anyone can ask, and it's more than can be said for most people.
Then again, many atheists don't even try to understand faith in others. They simply judge it to be irrational and immature, and stop there. Some of that is a reaction to persons of faith denigrating their own beliefs, I'm sure, but some of it is just intrinsic human laziness and unwillingness to try to see another's point of view.
And yes, I am aware that Cirocco is in Canada, but I don't know enough to comment in generalised terms about Canada.
From where I sit, Canadians make fun of the stupidly or blindly religious, try hard to be tolerant of different faiths, and are mostly indifferent to those of no faith. But that's strictly from my POV, and off the top of my head I can think of dozens of exceptions to all of the above from my own life and in the news. Like the yahoos who torched the Hindu temple in Hamilton after September 11. So much for Canada's tolerant multiculturalism :(
no subject
Date: 2004-09-10 06:25 am (UTC)Such a lovely man, isn't he? So very open-minded.
Although...I wonder if it depends not only on your stance, but on your milieu.
Yeah, that must play a big part. Whoever you are and whatever you believe in, there are places where you will feel marginalised. I've even felt marginalized as a heterosexual a couple of times - when I was in the offices of the Lesbian & Gay Association at Queen's University.
I think I'm just thinking aloud in your journal now. :)
'Sokay - so am I ;)
no subject
Date: 2004-09-09 09:17 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-09-10 03:45 am (UTC)I don't either, but I think where we disagree is in our definition of what's a "religious organization." Church groups are obviously religious organizations. Public school sports teams are obviously not. But what about Scouts? IMHO Scouts lands in a grey area - non-religious to some, including myself and Scouts Canada, but religious to many others, including you and Scouts USA.
I see nothing wrong ... in ministers who refuse to marry or bury people who don't want religious ceremonies.
No, neither do I. My own problem with the minister who did the service for my mother was that we had been referred to him by the funeral home after I said that we weren't religious. And he didn't just include a small reference to God - he did a full-fledged very religious service, with prayer, readings from the Bible, and sermons.
I would have much preferred for him to refuse to perform the service. Then I would have gone about searching for a more appropriate person to perform it.
There are non religious youth groups and there are secular options for marriage and funerals. If people don't want God in their lives they should choose the alternatives.
I agree. However, the alternatives are sometimes hard to find. There's no equivalent non-faith alternative to Scouting in most cities and towns, for example.
I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing - after all, it makes sense that if the majority of humans are religious/spiritual, then the majority of organizations will be religious/spiritual as well. I'm just pointing out that, from my POV, people of faith, and social structures that cater to that people of faith, are in the majority.
no subject
Date: 2004-09-10 04:46 am (UTC)There's a Hindu proverb that goes something like this: "What is done, cannot be undone." Karma = no free rides, baby. Committed a crime? You're coming back as a rock. Okay, so you aren't reincarnated as an inanimate object, but you get my drift.
Re: Hell, I'm reminded of a quote from one of my favourite episodes of Picket Fences:
Douglas Wambaugh: Hell's big... but it's not that big.
Mind you, the episode was about the masturbating priest with a shoe fetish, but again... you get my drift ;)
no subject
Date: 2004-09-10 12:03 pm (UTC)The priest at Bath Institution used to say that many of the guys had merely traded one addiction (drugs/alcohol/whatever) for another (God). He was a wise man.
Douglas Wambaugh: Hell's big... but it's not that big.
Heh :)