Huh.

[ciroccoj]

OK, this is going to sound weird, but whatever.

I just read an lj entry where somebody was talking about Little Mosque on the Prairie, and they said that while they found it interesting, "I don't know how realistic it is, as I don't really know any Muslims."

Which made me blink in startlement, because who actually doesn't know any Muslims?They're 21% of the world's population! I mean, seriously, how can you not... ::suddenly remember I live in Ottawa (huuge Muslim population) and there weren't a whole lot of 'em here when I was growing up either, and...:: Ah. Um. Yeah, 'scuse me, I'll just get my head outta my biased posterior now, and approach the subject with just a tad more respect.



So here's my question: do you know any Muslims? How many? How well? Do you think the fact that you do/don't know Muslim folks personally affects how you feel about Muslims in general? And if so, how?

Comments

[snarkhunter.livejournal.com]

Um, well, I've had classes with Muslims?

For all that we have a visible Muslim population here, and I know some Muslims, I know them in a very casual "say hey in the halls" sort of way.

Oh, wait! Duh. I forgot that Teesh was Muslim. I did have a friend for a year in college (she graduated) who was Muslim. But she wasn't really practicing at the time. I mean, she was, but she was sort of experimenting with not being devout.

There was a girl on the newspaper with me who was "Muslim," but believe me when I say the quotes are necessary. Yes, she was technically a Muslim, but only b/c her dad was.

So, yes. I know some Muslims. One thing I do notice, though, is that with Muslims (and Mormons), if they're not seriously devout, I tend to think they're not "real" Muslims. Which is completely unfair, b/c i know lots of people who identify as Christian who don't fit the stereotypes (see one every time I look in the mirror), and yet...

[ciroccoj.livejournal.com]

There was a girl on the newspaper with me who was "Muslim," but believe me when I say the quotes are necessary. Yes, she was technically a Muslim, but only b/c her dad was.

So, yes. I know some Muslims. One thing I do notice, though, is that with Muslims (and Mormons), if they're not seriously devout, I tend to think they're not "real" Muslims. Which is completely unfair, b/c i know lots of people who identify as Christian who don't fit the stereotypes (see one every time I look in the mirror), and yet...
Yeah, it's such an odd combination of what the individual thinks of their own membership in a religion, what the religion in general believes re. who is in or out (and of course that begs the question of how you decide what/who represents/speaks for 'the religion as a whole') plus what you believe re. who is a member of the religion and who isn't...

I think I'm more likely to think of a person living in a place that is predominantly Religion X as an adherent of X even if they aren't particularly devout, but a person who isn't of the predominant religion has to be pretty devout for me to consider them part of that non-predominant religion. I guess following that logic there's a hell of a lot of folks I'd consider Mormons in Salt Lake City, Amish in Pennsylvania, and Sikhs in Punjab even if they never bother setting foot in a church/temple, but the same folks wouldn't strike me as Mormon/Amish/Sikh if they lived the exact same way in Ottawa.

Which I don't think makes much sense, now that I see it written down like that. Because wouldn't you think it would take a bit more devotion simply to declare to yourself/the world that you're Mormon/Amish/Sikh in Ottawa than in Utah/PA/Punjab?

Hm.

[nonniemous.livejournal.com]

I know of some Muslims, but here in the overly white PacNW, and in the more conservative, rural area in which I live? Yeah, folks who are "that" different tend to not want to live here.

[nonniemous.livejournal.com]

Qualifier: We have a large, refugee Bantu population over in Beaverton, and I see a lot of the young women out and about. One works at the clothing store I was at yesterday. But that doesn't count as "knowing" someone of the Muslim faith.

[ciroccoj.livejournal.com]

Yeah, folks who are "that" different tend to not want to live here.
Heh, yeah, I can imagine. I lived in Kingston and London, Ontario, and there was a noticeable paucity of non-white people. So much so that my son had a real fear of dark-skinned men when he was a baby, because the only dark-skinned men he had ever met were our family doc and our pediatrician, both of whom jabbed him with sharp things. It's funny, growing up in a place like Ottawa you tend to forget that much of the world actually doesn't have much skin-tone or cultural variety.

[stephantom.livejournal.com]

I've known one Muslim. She was a girl in my 1st grade class. We weren't best friends, but we were friends for that year and stuff. I even remember one lunch where we sat together and ended up discussing Islam vs. Christianity. lol I clearly remember us coming to the conclusion that what I call God, she called Allah, and that it was the same thing so there was no problem. lol We were seven. Too bad some people older than us couldn't figure out the same thing!

But anyway. Besides her I have not personally known any Muslims. Hmm, probably that girl at the Brown summer program I went to who was my friend's roommate. I think she was. She was from Lebanon. And also France.

I don't think not knowing that many Muslims has really affected how I feel about them... I mean, I don't think it's made me come to any crazy ideas about them or whatever. Although, possibly it does make me awkward and self-conscious, the same way I feel awkward and self-conscious around black people. That sounds absolutely horrible. But it's not a straight-forward racist thing, it's a all-too-aware-of-racism thing. And I know that a lot of people really disagree with the "we talk about racism too much" thing and stuff and I can undersatnd that point of view, but honestly, for me, I'd rather just think of people as people. When I take a class that discusses race issues constantly, it just makes me hyper-aware of races, of myself being white and the automatic privilege or advantage that has in our society, and so I feel guilty and if I'm around a black person, I wonder what they think of me and I try to be careful to not be offensive in any way, even though I don't think I would be if I wasn't even thinking about it. In fact, I'd probably be less offensive if I wasn't thinking about it, at least I think.

So, in a way, it's the same thing with Muslims. I feel a strange kind of embarrassment for being Christian. I also feel embarrassed for being an American. lol

[ciroccoj.livejournal.com]

I clearly remember us coming to the conclusion that what I call God, she called Allah, and that it was the same thing so there was no problem. lol We were seven. Too bad some people older than us couldn't figure out the same thing!
LOL!!

Yeah, my son was five when I somehow ended up explaining to him that many Christians hated the Jews because they thought the Jews killed Christ, and they thought Christ would want them to persecute the Jews for his sake.

"But... that's terrible!!" he said, deeply shocked. "Jesus would hate that!"

From the mouths of babes...

I mean, I don't think it's made me come to any crazy ideas about them or whatever. Although, possibly it does make me awkward and self-conscious, the same way I feel awkward and self-conscious around black people.
Hm... yeah, I could see that.


In fact, I'd probably be less offensive if I wasn't thinking about it, at least I think.
Yeah, maybe. I do think we can overthink/overguilt ourselves into a tizzy, and that just serves no purpose.

Then again, sometimes there's stuff that comes up when you talk about racism that most people honestly wouldn't come up with on their own. I remember one workshop I did that had us do roleplays where, unbeknownst to the "regular Canadian" actors, the "foreign" actors were told to behave in some bizarre way - sitting way too close, interrupting, touching a lot, etc - all in the name of showing respect for the "regular Canadian." Eg. one culture taught that to show you were paying attention and involved in a dialogue, you needed to try to finish your partners' sentences. It was pretty silly but it really made us more aware of common pitfalls that come up among people of different cultures. And that's the kind of thing that if you didn't think about it, you might not feel as awkward around the person of a different culture/race/etc... but you might end up offending them without meaning to, just because you didn't understand that they might be coming from a different place than you. Or you might end up feeling offended at some aspect of their behaviour that really had nothing to do with offending you and everything to do with showing you respect.

[mynuet.livejournal.com]

Back in middle school, there was a Jordanian girl who was staying with family in the area, and she got attached to me as I was the school's go-to girl for shepherding foreign students through classes. She had quite a lot to say about the evils of Jews in general and Israel specifically, which was a bit disconcerting - especially since I'd never met a Jewish person until middle school, either. Well, at least not that I knew they were Jewish - it's not like it's a neon sign above people's heads, is it?

Currently, I don't think I know any Muslims in real life, although of course I know several online.

[ciroccoj.livejournal.com]

She had quite a lot to say about the evils of Jews in general and Israel specifically, which was a bit disconcerting
Yeah, I bet.

- especially since I'd never met a Jewish person until middle school, either. Well, at least not that I knew they were Jewish - it's not like it's a neon sign above people's heads, is it?
Heh, well I don't know how many times I was asked if I was Jewish (or, even odder, told I was Jewish) when I worked in the prison system. Wha?

Currently, I don't think I know any Muslims in real life, although of course I know several online.
Yeah that's hard to tell too sometimes :)

[13oct.livejournal.com]

Growing up in India, one of my best pals was Muslim. Being the dork that I am, I went thru this phase where I was fascinated by various religions. No, I didn't want to convert and all, I was just curious about different religions. So, when I got to the phase where I was interested in Islam, I sat down with her mother (who incidentally was a lecturer in a university) and read the Koran with her. This was the time when the Taliban had first come to power in Afghanistan and we talked a lot about it...

I do have a lot of other good friends who happen to be Muslim. Some are devout and even choose to wear the Hijab, and some are totally indifferent to religion period. Overall, most of the people who I have talked to about fundamentalism in Islam all agree that a couple of lunatics have hijacked the religion. But, at the same time - not every one thought that way.

The best explanation that I get was from one of my friends who said, every religion goes thru its period of unrest and violence. For example, how there were the crusades and the holy wars for Christianity... according to her, Islam is going thru that period of flux right now. I don't know if she is right or not, but the concept of killing in the name of God is something that no person - Muslim or not - that I have ever spoken to has agreed with.

[ciroccoj.livejournal.com]

Being the dork that I am, I went thru this phase where I was fascinated by various religions.
Hee - meet a fellow dork ;)

No, I didn't want to convert and all, I was just curious about different religions. So, when I got to the phase where I was interested in Islam, I sat down with her mother (who incidentally was a lecturer in a university) and read the Koran with her. This was the time when the Taliban had first come to power in Afghanistan and we talked a lot about it...
Wow. That sounds incredibly cool.

The best explanation that I get was from one of my friends who said, every religion goes thru its period of unrest and violence. For example, how there were the crusades and the holy wars for Christianity... according to her, Islam is going thru that period of flux right now. I don't know if she is right or not, but the concept of killing in the name of God is something that no person - Muslim or not - that I have ever spoken to has agreed with.
Yeah, I've heard that too. Not sure what I think about it. I think there's plenty of proof that it's not so much "a period" of unrest and violence as it is recurring episodes, in just about any religion you can think of. And when I start to get snooty and tell myself that atheism at least has the great benefit of having no Divine Supreme telling us to go kill other people for the crime of not believing what we do, I think of the Soviet Union and that puts the brakes on that particular bit of arrogance real fast :(

[officerjudy.livejournal.com]

I don't know any Muslims. It doesn't affect the way I feel about them, as I really have no opinion one way or the other.

[ciroccoj.livejournal.com]

Hm. See, this is so strange to me. It's like hearing someone say they don't know any black people. How is that possible?

I mean, yes, I know, I only need to look at the Ottawa of my childhood, or at the demographics of most cities that are not in the Middle East, and I understand how it's possible. But it's still odd, you know?

[a-dawn.livejournal.com]

Yes, I know Muslims, three. But even with the low personal number, here in Ottawa it's just such a huge part of the culture that I take it for granted.

[ciroccoj.livejournal.com]

Yes, I know Muslims, three. But even with the low personal number, here in Ottawa it's just such a huge part of the culture that I take it for granted.
Yeah, it really is, isn't it? When your grocery store has Halal aisles and half the girls at the nearest high school wear hijabs, it becomes part of the background. It was such an odd sensation once when we came back from a vacation and I realized that the sight of hijabs meant "home" to me.

[a-dawn.livejournal.com]

When your grocery store has Halal aisles

Ha. The funny thing is, my grocery store doesn't have Halal aisles, it mixes it all in with everything else -- just one more option right?

[daf9.livejournal.com]

I've known at least three. Two were fellow scientists and fairly good friends for about ten years. Knowing them has affected how I feel about Muslims to the extent of reminding me that not all Muslims are the radical nutcases that I read about too distressingly often in the newspaper.

[ciroccoj.livejournal.com]

Knowing them has affected how I feel about Muslims to the extent of reminding me that not all Muslims are the radical nutcases that I read about too distressingly often in the newspaper.
Yeah, I think that's sort of where I am too. I realized at one point that I know a whole hell of a lot of Muslims, ranging from friends (though no close friends) to colleagues to folks on the street, and I think it's worn down my perception of Muslims as "other." It's hard to hold on to any stereotype of "this is what Muslims look like/sounds like/believe" when you access your mental file labelled "Muslim" and find a few dozen folks, most of whom have little or nothing in common with one another beyond their religion.